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Killer Interview: Author Found a ‘Totally Friendly, Charming’ John Gardner

Third in a series: Caitlin Rother of “Lost Girls” shared revelations from June 2011 jailhouse visit.

Updated at 11:40 a.m. Feb. 27, 2013

Caitlin Rother interviewed the killer’s mother, sisters, aunt and ex-girlfriends*. For Lost Girls, she delved into records that others overlooked and discovered leads that police missed.

But it wasn’t until she was almost finished with the book that she met the monster himself.

John Gardner—100 pounds heavier than when he was sentenced 13 months earlier—was serving a life sentence for the rape-murder of local teens Amber Dubois and Chelsea King when he sat across a “rickety round table” from Rother for five hours on June 25, 2011.

Her impressions?

“He’s really nice—a charming guy,” Rother recalled last month. “Totally friendly, charming, nonthreatening. You’d never guess.”

Rother wasn’t really surprised. In her research, she found several old girlfriends who “have good memories of their time with him,” she said in late January.

But that’s what she wanted to show people in her eighth book—that “people are not always what they seem.”

Although she’d done jailhouse interviews before, Rother was exceptionally nervous the night before the chat—conducted at Corcoran State Prison an hour northwest of Bakersfield.

“I woke up every half-hour, anxious about sitting across from a man with a trigger temper,” she wrote in the Epilogue of Lost Girls. “I was also worried I wouldn’t get any sleep before the 4 a.m.  alarm went off” at a friend’s house in Los Angeles.

Dressed in loose pants and long-sleeved button-up shirt, Rother said she scribbled frantically on unlined paper—only 10 sheets allowed. No tape recorder permitted.

Gardner sat feet away, with no protective pane of glass as in the movies.

What she learned from the experience: “You need to be careful and not just trust people—and listen to things that they say and process it.”

People need not be “totally paranoid about everybody,” she said. “But at the same time—you know, I’ve taken a lot of risks that I probably shouldn’t have. And after writing this book, I’m much more careful about what I think of people now.”

Rother had read every scrap of information about Gardner in preparing for her research, but her own investigation found dozens (maybe hundreds) of dramatic facts that bore on how a sweet but suicidal boy became a sexual predator.

Among the book’s revelations: Gardner had sex with his mother’s sister—although he and the aunt had different accounts of how it came about.

And minutes before Gardner dragged Chelsea from her jogging path at Rancho Bernardo Community Park three years ago Monday, a “really attractive blonde wearing Spandex shorts and a red shirt” drew his attention.

He stealthily chased her at least a half-mile before giving up, he told Rother.

Who was the woman?

“Nobody knows who it is,” Rother said in the Patch interview. “She probably doesn’t know. She never came forward. … He’s the only person who said that happened. I believe him about that [incident].”

Rother said there’s something about liars—“they do tell the truth. ... There’s always things they tell the truth about.”

Aside from the jailhouse interview, perhaps the most dramatic—and detailed—section of the book is Chapter 28, where Rother tells of a secret trip that led to the discovery of Amber’s remains.

“Her remains were found March 6, 2010, in a remote area of Pala by police acting on a tip,” reported the Union-Tribune at the time.

A few knew the tip came from Gardner himself. He led police—and a convoy of SWAT members, an attorney and others—to the Pala Indian reservation in North County.

But Rother had her suspicions even then.

“I had a feeling it was him,” she said. “I actually called up the DA’s media guy on Sunday and said: Are you guys talking to Gardner? Is that where you got that [tip]?”

No reporter knew the details of that dramatic field trip.

“I took a lot of time recreating that scene,” she said. “I really did interview a lot of people. I thought it was interesting—and nobody knew.”

Also unknown to police was a woman in her 50s who responded to a Craigslist ad for a hookup with a man—who turned out to be Gardner. The woman said he was too young for her. No assault took place, but the woman who told Rother of the encounter was shaken by the brush with potential disaster.

“She found me and then she took my [writing] class,” Rother said. “I can’t say anything more because she wanted to be anonymous.”

But perhaps the biggest expose was one she never got.

Rother persistently tried to get state records on Gardner from the state and Riverside County departments of mental health.

Rother was repeatedly denied the records—even with Gardner’s written permission.

She wanted to know how Gardner had won parole in September 2005—despite court records that a prison psychologist had deemed Gardner “too dangerous to release” from his first incarceration (involving a neighbor girl, false imprisonment and lewd and lascivious acts). 

She especially wanted to know why he was designated a low-risk offender when prison mental health records that his mother released to Rother “showed that he had a mental breakdown and homicidal ideations ... during his first five-year prison term.” 

She says she sent typed letters of authorization for his signature, “giving his permission to various doctors, state and county agencies to release his personal files and records to me for my book.” 

“I sent them to [Gardner], and he signed [the requests to release his records], so they knew it was from him and not from me,” she said.

Rother said Gardner told her that “someone from the Department of Mental Health actually came to the prison and asked: Did you send a letter to us?”

“He said yes,” she said. “And they still did not release [the records].”

State officials visiting him in person for confirmation “was bizarre,” Rother said, “But they refused to release them.”

Was the state hiding something? Patch asked.

Said Rother: “Why else would they do that?”

Monday: The Firestorm That Fizzled: ‘Lost Girls’ Author Defused Mother of Victim

Tuesday: Of Mice and Monsters: How Caitlin Rother Grew Up to Be a True-Crime Author

Thursday: Caitlin Rother takes an interest in Coronado’s Rebecca Zahau case.

*Editor's note: An earlier version of this story incorrectly said John Gardner interviewed the mother of his twin boys.

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Status Quo March 30, 2013 at 08:26 pm
Ken' "since most of the pro-active sports organizations (ASA (softball), AYSO, and LittleRead More League) have been doing it for years." "The only thing is that it won't stop those that have not been caught yet." Right up front, this is not attack of your insider view... however you make excellent case of the dubious nature of Mr. Maienschein's efforts. The organization you umpire, is already pro-active(if no perpetrators have been present within the org.) and legislation is an interference. Although the Assemblyman shares my Party affiliation as Republican, his legislation is a Progressive trojan-horse adding a layer of expansive over-governance. Ken, will his legislation improve the efficacy of background checks? Will it force lesser pro-active or ill-financed organizations to fold? Although I align myself with Scott Nelson's bottom line and sentiments, quite reticent to believe "local governments/state governments are willing to provide and pay for" anything themselves. For it is you and me, not legislators or governance that pays for programs such as these. I have found Government, highly inefficient and bad stewards of the interests of our children. In the interest of efficiency, I am quite confident in order to coach his daughter's soccer team he has passed his background check... and quite willing under my added mandate, to allow his check to suffice for legislative service as compliant.
Ken Mosley March 30, 2013 at 04:03 pm
Being an umpire of youth sports for nearly 40 years, I am all in favor of this, since most of theRead More pro-active sports organizations (ASA (softball), AYSO, and Little League) have been doing it for years. I am charged a fee by the organizations that I choose to officiate to cover the costs of this background check. I support knowing that the service that help to provide will not be tainted by those who have already been found to mis-behave with children. The only thing is that it won't stop those that have not been caught yet. It is a sad state of affairs that we have to do this, but it's because it's for our kids that we must.
Scott Nelson March 30, 2013 at 10:42 am
Having run a youth basketball league with close to 1,000 kids for 3 years, I can tell you that whileRead More the idea has some merit, the costs and time associated with it are enormous. If the local governments/state governments are willing to provide and pay for the mechanism to do this- great. If not, should be the responsibility of the parents to not just drop their kids and leave them for hours at a time, but actually perhaps stay for practices or heaven forbid actually help and participate to insure that everything is fine in THEIR children's environment.....A little personal responsibility for their own kids would be a new concept to a lot of parents...
Kathy April 19, 2013 at 02:40 pm
Well Colleen O'Connor, I have a daughter in the California system, and am appalled at yourRead More statements...Are you that blind. Did you write that and smile, patting yourself on the back at how 'stand up' and 'righteous' you are. Yes, instead of just going to visit, why don't you try spending a week, a month, more in the system...you think walking thru will give you an idea about how the treatment is. You won't even see the truth, even going for a surprise visit. I too do not condone the crimes, but you in your judgemental mindset have no idea. Yes, they made bad choices, but it does not make them all bad people, I agree the promotions to DA's should be more on the rehabilitation rate, rather than the number they interject into the system. Sad, your article is so sad. Think of the families of the incarcerated and how your comments can affect them as well as tjhe incarcerated, who already have their own guilt to bear, their own hurt, you have no idea how hard it is to be away from family, every movement controlled, missing births, deaths, children growing up. You don't think so many of them are sick at the situation they got themselves into? Do you not even have compassion as a person. You never expect it to happen to your loved one, my daughter was a working soccer mom, a devoted wife & mother, a loving person with a huge heart. Not everyone is evil or bad, they just made a bad choice. I agree, is the Gov. above the law cause he has a title??? Think about it.
aprillacy32@yahoo.com April 19, 2013 at 02:23 pm
Mike you are spot on this is what I have been saying and trying to get them listen CDCR, my teacherRead More and I were just discussing how lifers are the only inmates offered rehabilitation which makes no sense at all to me when a man serving 5 or 10 who will be getting out does not receive rehabilitation this is a cycle that is repeating it's self and there are so many family's kid's who need there parent's this has a far greater impact on our community in so many way's and different level's that we have to find a solution
mike April 19, 2013 at 03:02 am
The prison industry complex is one of the fastest-growing industries in the United States and itsRead More investors are on Wall Street. “This multi-million-dollar industry has its own trade exhibitions, conventions, websites, and mail-order/Internet catalogs. It also has direct advertising campaigns, architecture companies, construction companies, investment houses on Wall Street, plumbing supply companies, food supply companies, armed security, and padded cells in a large variety of colors.”. This country is in a state of lock em up and forget, until it hits your family or friends. I'm am in no way condoning the crime some ding dongs commit, but sentencing in California is out of control. Its called "union". Its called Big Green (Calif Dept of Corrections). Many can become productive members of society, many cant. We need a way to sort them out. District Attorneys build their brownie points and promotions on convictions, maybe promotions should be built on rehabilitation and success rather than penalty, Things that make you go Hmmmm!
Frank H. Robles April 11, 2013 at 12:07 pm
She will run.... but not get the Nomination....!!!
Gail April 10, 2013 at 02:52 pm
Yup! I agree with it all.
Dan Wright April 4, 2013 at 10:50 am
It has only been a few weeks, but to me, it looks like Congressman Peters is doing a great jobRead More representing the diverse interests of his district. I am delighted that as a Democrat, he is reaching out to the Republicans in his district. If there were a hundred more like Scott, we would not have such partisan gridlock crippling our country.